“No to CBDC, Yes to Freedom” - My Interview on Tio / 20 minuti Switzerland

What are the risks of CBDCs, what are some real life projects & examples, and can Bitcoin really be the antidote?

I was interviewed for Tio/20minuti leading up to the “Plan B Forum” conference in which I’ll be speaking, on Oct. 25-26 2024.

The interview is in Italian, but I’ve translated in to English below. Enjoy!

Left: online | Right: in print, in the rain :)

No to CBDCs, Yes to Freedom: Efrat Fenigson at the Plan ₿ Forum

Among the key speakers of this third edition (25-26 October 2024), the Israeli podcaster and activist, who will compare central bank digital currencies (CBDCs) and Bitcoin, analyzing their social impact.

Among the many experts and professionals who will animate the Palazzo dei Congressi complex in Lugano, on Friday 25 and Saturday 26 October, for the third consecutive year, Efrat Fenigson stands out among the new names, a different voice in the panorama of Bitcoin supporters.

Fenigson, known for her podcast "You're The Voice", brings with her a wealth of experience gained in the field of activism for individual sovereignty and freedom of expression, at a time when many countries are working to create CBDCs (central bank digital currencies).

But what are the risks and the impact on society of adopting these tokens, and how do they differ from Bitcoin? We asked her directly, in a preview of her speech on the shores of Ceresio, delving into what citizens find themselves and risk finding themselves facing, compared to the path that their governments will choose to take.

• In your podcast "You're The Voice", you fearlessly tackle topics such as health, economics, politics, money, sovereignty, and mind control. How does your interest in Bitcoin relate to these subjects?
  
  My mission is to encourage people to reclaim their self-sovereignty, in any walk of life: from health, to education, to politics, finances and economics. Hence my growing interest in Bitcoin, as a powerful tool to reclaim financial and economical sovereignty, which also integrates with so many other areas of our lives. I love interviewing Bitcoiners with an open mindset, open-hearted, who are humble and wise, and I find there are many Bitcoiners that answer this description. My podcast hosts politicians such as MEP Christine Anderson, Senator Malcolm Roberts from Australia, Doctors, Researchers, Activists, Economists, Entrepreneurs as well as people with powerful stories of bravery - and many of them understand and appreciate the power of truth and self-sovereignty . 
  

• In your podcast, you often host people from around the world to openly discuss complex topics. How important is it for you to promote the free exchange of ideas and opinions, especially regarding Bitcoin?
  
  During covid in 2020-2021 I was awakened to the harsh reality in which the state and global organizations overreached my boundaries, and tried to mandate behaviors and actions on me that were a violation of my human rights and were coercing my free will. That period sparked my new career as a content creator. In a time where our voice is being silenced, our critical thinking is labeled and ridiculed, our minds controlled through sophisticated propaganda, and the state and globalist powers continue to clamp down on our innate rights, my podcast is a stage for brave humans to come out and speak their truth, even if it’s inconvenient and outside of the socially “permitted” sandbox of opinions. Bitcoiners often convey messages of self-sovereignty - guided by Bitcoin’s ethos of “rules without rulers”, and are enchanted by ideas of anarcho-capitalism. My podcast is a place where we can truly think about and discuss how to reshape incentive structures in society, in order to bring about positive change and improve systems that are impacting our day to day lives. If we won’t engage in this kind of free exchange of ideas and opinions, we’ll stay with systems and structures that fit the existing reality, which is clearly changing in front of our eyes. These discussions are paramount, and with the ongoing censorship online, I feel privileged to still be able to host such deep and meaningful discussions.

  
  » Check out the “CBDC section” of this blog, for further research

  
  

• Do you believe that Bitcoin can promote individual freedom and financial sovereignty? In what ways?
  
  Those who invest the time to learn how our current fiat monetary system works, understand that our wealth is being eroded by the state, in the form of inflation and taxation. Western countries, for the most part, were able to uphold this illusion of economic stability, thanks to relatively low levels of inflation and a level of taxation that we can “live with”. But as our debt-based economies reach peak levels of debt, followed by an ever increasing rate of emergencies, wars, or crises, the state and its central bank are losing their grip over monetary stability, and we the citizens are starting to feel the tightening control over and growing erosion of our assets, the unstable nature of most investment assets, and in general we’re just tired of the yields-chasing race, to try and beat inflation. In such a reality, Bitcoin is a refreshing paradigm shift. With different rules to the fiat “game”, Bitcoin’s fixed supply dictates monetary stability in the long term, with an appreciating nature. When I think long term, I’d like to know that my savings or wealth are stored in a hard asset such as gold, without the disadvantages of its physicality that can lead to it being confiscated. Bitcoin is a hard asset, a digital gold, that can be moved around easily, unlike gold. On top of that, one of the biggest hurdles for humanity to be financially free and sovereign are the limitations posed by the banking sector on what’s ours. Withdrawing funds is not that easy anymore, privacy with cash is slowly disappearing, and the threat of CBDC is looming. In the face of these hurdles, Bitcoin needs no permission to use. With direct access in self-custody to my wealth, I am able to reduce friction and increase my independence over my assets.
  In some developing countries and communities, Bitcoin is already being used today also as a medium of exchange, in places like Nigeria, Peru, Costa Rica, Guatemala and many more, allowing people to be more sovereign and to be their own bank. In countries where hyperinflation is storming - such as Egypt, Lebanon, Argentina and Venezuela - Bitcoin is used more than in other places, as its advantages and properties emerge as harder safer alternative than the failing fiat. 
  

• One of the central themes of this year's Plan ₿ Forum is the comparison between central bank digital currencies (CBDCs) and Bitcoin. What is your opinion on this debate?
  
  We live in very special times; Times in which we walk in two parallel paths, two parallel realities. In one reality, the Fiat reality, we are locked into a system that steals from us, via inflation and taxation and is making us weaker, more dependent and surveilled. Its control mechanisms are reaching new peaks of sophistication thanks to advancements in technology, and imbalanced power and incentive structures. 

  In the Bitcoin reality, we are working day and night to build something new. We educate, develop, invest, and put our money where our mouth is, to  minimize our dependency on the state and its institutions, which is teaching us sovereignty and responsibility, day by day.
  Most of humanity is walking in the Fiat path, and is destined to convert to the CBDC path, which I call “Fiat on Steroids”. CBDC ties the financial freedom of citizens to the government and the banking establishment even further. Take everything that’s bad in the fiat system, and add more surveillance, control, censorship, and enforcement capabilities. It is the ultimate form of a modern prison, a prison without physical chains. Whether they choose it or not, those on the Fiat standard will be migrated to CBDC, and those who have taken the orange pill will join the Orange (Bitcoin) path.
  The differences between CBDC and Bitcoin are night and day. I’ve summarized them in this table:

  

• In your view, what are the main risks of CBDCs in terms of privacy and government control over citizens?

  
  By connecting CBDCs to digital identity cards, and to government systems such as universal basic income, social credits, carbon credits and more, we get the ultimate control apparatus. This apparatus will dictate to citizens what they’re allowed to purchase, what the permitted quotas are while limiting consumption according to rules and use cases, at programmed times, places and cadences. The system is able to determine the use of a geographic radius (geo-fencing), and to determine expiration dates on the money. Each remote controlled digital wallet can also be switched on and off by its operators. The real-life example from Thailand illustrates really well how draconian these abilities are: In 2023, Thailand launched a small Pilot amongst 10K people, who received free money, basically were bribed with $280 – a lot of money for the average Thai – with an expiry date of 6 months on the money, and a geo-fence of 4km radius where the money can be spent. Based on this successful pilot, the Thai government is launching a bigger pilot starting Oct. 2024-March 2025, for a digital token payout to 50 million lower-income earners, aimed at encouraging them to spend in their local communities. It’s a 500 billion-baht ($13.7 billion) plan. To date more than 18M people have already registered for this pilot. 

  This pilot restricts freedom of transaction rights, by setting the usage of the digital tokens through three key aspects – location (within the local area), timeframe (within six months) and to whom payments can be made (small businesses). The pilot specifies who is eligible to receive the money, excluding criminals and people who have been detained or have violated other government programs. The pilot also implements spending control (which increases social control) through programmability of the token, allowing the purchase of certain items, including food and household items and excluding fuel, electronics, alcohol, tobacco and more. In order to participate in the pilot and receive the “free” money, people have to register in the government taxing systems and disclose their income details, which is a privacy concern.
  More about Thailand’s pilots here:

  

• On the other hand, how can Bitcoin offer a freer and more decentralized alternative to CBDCs?
  
  Bitcoin is decentralized in nature, spread across thousands of computers around the world running the Bitcoin code. With no permission needed to access or use it, and with a deflationary nature that prevents the inflation of supply and eroding of its value, Bitcoin allows its holders to globally buy, trade and use it 24/7/365. Layer2 solutions such as lightning or liquid, allow users to send and receive bitcoin in seconds with minimal fees, and that is already working and in use today - which gives bitcoin a good headstart over CBDCs.
  As Michael Saylor - executive chairman of Microstrategy - told me in our conversation on my podcast recently, the decentralized nature of bitcoin creates an opportunity where everyone, all 8 billion people around the world can participate in this financial reality, and the actions of one person in Singapore, for example, can influence and appreciate the value of the bitcoin asset that another person is holding in the US, unlike real estate for example which is highly local. 
  While Bitcoin is still in its early days, and used today mostly as the best store of value and savings mechanism, its properties allow it to already be used as a medium of exchange in communities that benefit from that.
  In a dystopian future which I hope we’ll never live to see - we may have to get the state’s approval to use our money in the form of CBDC, to buy a home, to register our child to university or even buy him/her a flight ticket to embark on that trip they’ve always dreamt of. With bitcoin life should be simpler and easier. And if the forecasts are correct, and bitcoin is going up forever and demonetizing all other monetary assets, our bitcoin today should be able to provide true financial relief in the future.
  [General stats about CBDC: More than 130 countries are in the initial stages of piloting CBDC systems, of which 36 countries are in advanced pilots, and 3 countries have already launched systems (Nigeria, Jamaica and the Bahamas)]

• How do you think the widespread adoption of Bitcoin could influence the global economic and political landscape in the coming years?
  
  In recent years we’re seeing a move in “early adopter” states who are taking first mover advantages with bitcoin. El Salvador was the first to declare bitcoin as a legal tender, and quite a few other countries around the world are friendly towards bitcoin. My recent interview with Samson Mow, CEO of Jan3 which consults nation states about bitcoin adoption, tells a compelling case for states to benefit from integrating bitcoin to their policies and harnessing wasted energy for bitcoin mining. In the recent Bitcoin Nashville conference, presidential candidates Trump and RFK Jr. both made statements about holding some of the US reserves in Bitcoin, a move that should help lower national debts. Senator Cynthia Lummis is promoting such a bill these days to get the ball rolling. While bitcoin doesn’t “need” politicians, politics or nation state adoption to keep growing, if Trump wins the coming elections, it will accelerate the global adoption and scale of Bitcoin around the world. While passing such a bill destabilizes the Federal Reserve’s monopoly on money printing, which will be a big challenge, if the US adopts Bitcoin as part of its reserve currency - it will have worldwide implications and many other countries will start doing the same. Adopting Bitcoin for nation states could drive down incentive for wars and reduce incentive to compete and conquer natural resources. Imagine a world where the state no longer has a grip over money printing, and the power to dictate monetary decisions is in the hand of a computer algorithm set in stone, guarded by a consensus of a network of users. The monopoly the state has over dictating and enforcing its decisions and policies - oftentimes through coercive or violent means - will be reduced, and a more balanced, sane reality could emerge.
  

• Lugano, the city hosting the Plan ₿ Forum, has embraced Bitcoin as part of a financial innovation project. In your opinion, what are the implications of such initiatives for the economic freedom of citizens?
  
  The implications are very encouraging and Lugano’s case is very interesting. I understand that more often than not, people start learning about bitcoin out of some pain or realization about life that pushes them to seek an alternative. Lugano may not be a place where people experience hardship, and yet there’s an enormous opportunity for people to start learning, understanding and embracing a different form of living, in a more independent, self-reliant and economically sound way. That would require education, therefore the emphasis on promoting content creators and educators in your region is something I would invest in, in order to seize the opportunity and make the most of it. The people of Lugano have a true gift in their hands - and they may not understand it yet. 

  

  Join me at Plan B Forum in Lugano, learn more here.

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